Category: News and Views
Here's the news story.
In summary, it is a man who wishes to transition to become a woman, but ponders the devastating effects on wife and family. The article shows the man's query, the "ethics" editor's response, plus the myriad comments.
I'll put my comments starting in Post 2 of this thread, but am genuinely curious what you think, not only of the article, but my comments on it.
OK here are my thoughts on the situation.
First, I make no pretense of being able to understand all these complicated sexual types of situations. I do think, however, that the person wanting to do this should at least be commended for giving pause, and considering the impact on others.
But as devastating as these sexual situations must be, they aren't the only situations that render people unhappy in their lives. People work for corporations for whom they'd rather not work, only to support the kiddos. People live where they don't fit in, don't really want to live, in order to give the best education they have to the kiddos. Any of us who decided to breed have those obligations. How would I know? I gave up owning a business to go back to corporate in order to take care of the kiddos. I have never felt so alive as a human being as when I was owning my own business. It's all balls-to-the-wall, but it was mine. I took pride in what I was doing. I was building something! It was a bit of a thrill ride, which matches who I am.
I identify as an entrepreneur: yes, I said it, identify. But because it is not a sex thing, everyone would just expect that I cut out that part of myself for the benefit of my kid. And nobody is going to criticize me for "not being true to myself," whatever that means, because I shelved the business.
Another part of myself: being free and independent, not bound to transportation constraints. I'd rather walk 40 to 60 blocks than wait for a ride. It's not about what people say on here about the independence of the blind: it's just the ability to get where I want to go when I want to get there. I gave all that up so the daughter could have a better high school education. I have now gotten to know people who don't even know that I can go places for myself. In front of them, I am living a lie, as the transsexuals say. I don't like it. But the daughter only got one chance at high school, something she may have got tired of hearing me say.
Again, nobody is criticizing me for "not being true to myself" because I have made what is for me a very radical sacrifice. I'll admit, too, I've been depressed most of the time, felt like a caged animal, would rather work for myself again, and often have felt hopeless to change anything. Five years in this type of isolation has been a very long time. And six years away from running my own business, again, a very long time.
I cannot even expect that most people would understand. In a way, just like the transsexuals.
So to that end, I empathized with this person's position.
But, I chose to breed. With that comes certain obligations. Everyone understands me meeting mine, because mine aren't about a sexual "cool" or "enlightened" club, where people say the kids will just get used to it.
I have no idea how a person in his situation would be expected to manage such a thing, and any answer I had would frankly come off as trite, I imagine. But just because something is sexual in nature, doesn't give it more or less priority. Ironically, this is the same problem as the major religions have, to be so obsessed over sexual roles and things they look a bit nuts to the rest of us.
Part of ourselves, I think anyway, is our obligations and what we do to manage those things. I can't imagine not giving my daughter the best opportunities I could give her, for no other reason than that I needed to be true to myself, as it were.
And news flash: kids don't appreciate it when you pay for the cell phone, pick up their clothes, pay for their car insurance, take care of any number of other necessities and wants. They don't appreciate it that the parents always come in last for things. All they know is that mom and dad wouldn't buy them this or that. I even see that stuff by some of the young ones on here.
We all know it. We all even expect it, even though as parents we're expected to at least curb it some.
So how could they then be expected to appreciate something most of us adults can't even really fathom?
Kids can get out of shape over your work schedule changing, let alone your sex or gender assignment. Any parenting book will tell you how this all impacts kids. And especially now in modern times where we fathers are blamed for most everything that is wrong with society and kids, the list is endless of how these various things affect the kids. So why would the sexual things be any different?
i can appreciate wanting to be authentic, and there probably is some way to at least let the kids know, but I have no idea how. I also understand coming out: I came out as an entrepreneur ten years ago, took all the heat and angst, and a little acceptance, that comes with "coming out" from a plethora of groups. I also went back inside, in order to best manage things for the daughter's upbringing, and went inside as an independent person in order for her to get a good high school education.
I'll come out as independent and free moving again this spring once we move back, which is a surprise to a lot of people that I currently have known over the past five years.
Hopefully soon, I'll be able to come out full time as an entrepreneur again. That one, I will probably do in stages.
Although none of these things are sexual, they are more core to me than I ever had any idea before.
I don't know what it is to have to put aside something sexual, not like this. But I know what it is to live what amounts to as a lie, as they put it. I don't know if it's really classifiable as a lie. But certainly it does suck. It's depressing, hopeless, and the person's right: you're the shell of yourself. I get that. Because you are limited in ways you would not otherwise be limited, and you don't feel alive in ways you would otherwise feel so alive. It's as though the sun shines a little darker, the whole world is closed in a little closer.
So I don't think my mindset on this can be called what they call "transphobic" on that site.
I just think once any of us has chosen to breed, we have to do the best by the kids 100%. We do the best by corporations 100%, and corporations could take us or leave us. We even do our best by whatever volunteer or civic duties 100%. It's clear on this site, for instance, the CLs do their best by the site and its users, 100%.
So then why not the kids? "living this "lie," as they call it, is a painful thing to live with most times. But it would be far worse knowing the kid's situation was compromised because of something beyond their control, and something at least in part within my control.
Anyone who supports the severe constraints I have made on myself will not be called entrepreneurphobic, or freephobic. To that end, I don't think calling into question the timing of this person's transition "transphobic" has merit either.
I do think, though, that after the kids are grown, he should do it if that is what he needs. It would be hypocritical for me to say otherwise: I'm gettin' outa this place and back in the city as soon as economically sensible, now that the daughter has graduated. And again, economics driving things, will be running my own operation again as soon as I possibly can. But the daughter is no longer in high school, and so there are certain obligations I no longer have: like staying within the boundaries so she can get the best education possible.
I don't see any problem with the views you've expressed.
Leo, could you clarify what you mean when you say sexual? When I hear situations about whether a person feels as though they are a different gender than their body is, I don't consider it as a sexual controversy, but maybe that is a different way of defining it. I'll admit, I don't know very much about these sorts of topics. I don't know how it feels, or how it has affected those who have gone through it. However, I have heard it is extremely difficult for them to cope with and has driven some to commit suicide because they can't afford to get the surgery, they may be ashamed to do it because of what others may think, or any other reasons.
Personally I am not against it, and if the person believes it will make them happier, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't, other than there may be possible health hazzards. However, that can happen during many circumstances. It doesn't seem like it should be a life or death determiner, but for some it is.
I stand corrected, not thinking of the most obvious reason. That is a change to a person's whole sexual orientation.
I was using the term sexual in a very generic sense. And my view on the situation would be very different if there were no kids involved. And many of us have felt suicidal and hopeless: easy to feel as life ebbs away and you have little control of your environment. Clearly, this person needs support and empathy. I've not meant to illustrate otherwise: even if some of the terms I used were not psychologically correct, to some.
I don't disagree with what you're saying, at all, leo. right on!
As counterpoint I was going to provide a link where a religious chick suggested the same foolery to a couple gays, where one had a religious epiphany and wanted to go derelict on her duties by the kids they'd had together. I think that one was stupid too: Let God sort it all out? Oh, ok, so true to oneself or gods sort things out: where is individual responsibility?
Epiphany or no epiphany, religious experience or none, all sorts of places are full of parents who are compromising themselves in order to ensure their kids' best chance at things. Say what you will of churches, one way or the other, but you have any idea how many guys that are there solely for the kids, and the programs they get out of it? That's not really dishonest, if you are honest with the kids about your own questions, or differences of opinion about the situation.
I think the authenticity comes from how you tell your own kids about the situation, whatever that situation happens to be. I agree with no faking it, be it "let God work it out," or "be true to yourself." All we can promise our kids, for real, is what we ourselves actually do for them.
I really think one should be true to themselves.
My reason is because when you give up things for children you suffer not them.
You want to be a woman or whatever, do so. You want to live in a place that gives you more pride in your work and self, do this as well.
If you are happy they people around you will be happy and treated better.
Giving someone the "best education" is what you want, and sometimes that "best education" gets totally wasted. Who's going to feel bad at that point?
Just you.
speaking for myself, I will not regret the sacrifices I've made so that my son can attend a very good school in a very nice, all-be-it completely inaccessible, community. Making sure that he has the best I can possibly give him has been my sole purpose in life since the day I found out I was pregnant. What he chooses to do with these opportunities is not something I can necessarily control but at least I will know that I have done the best I could as his mom. I'm a pretty selfish person if the truth be told but all that goes out the window when it comes to my son. I'm sure somebody will be able to find fault with that and that's their business. That's what my mom did for me and if I can be half the mother she has been, I'll have done pretty well. Before the birth of my son, I would have been on the other side of this issue probably. I was one who would have never advocated staying in a marriage strictly for the sake of the kids, or doing much of anything strictly for their sake for that matter. Once I became a mother though something in me changed. I can't really explain it, and again, I'm strictly speaking for myself, but that's how I see things.
I understand how unhappy this guy must be, knowing that he'd much rather be a woman, but I wonder how the wife feels. I wonder if she ever feels cheated that this guy played the roll and married her, even though he'd rather be a woman. I don't know if this would mean that he actually prefers men, or if he would classify as a lesbian once the change was complete. In any case, I'm pretty sure the wife had no idea what lay ahead of her when she married him. Maybe he was confused at the time. I get that, but he didn't wake up one morning 10 years later and decide he'd rather be a woman. Surely this has been brewing for quite some time within him.
I agree. He knew and it was sort of selfish to marry someone without telling them.
I know a woman that is now strictly lesbian. She tried the man thing to please others and she ended up leaving the guy.
I knew she didn't really like men when she was a teen, and the guy she married is still having a hard time with it.
I guess that is his fault.
After she left him she's a much happier person, although mixed up, but that isn't because she's lesbian, just her nature.
You know I love the mother thing, bgut I wonder if in these cases a balance could be reached?
You move to a place you hate, so your kid can go to a better school.
Then you push that kid to do what you want him or her to do, because its best for them you think.
They end up hating it, what have you done? What gift have you given?
Sometimes a better education is not the exact school, but the students willingness to be educated.
This is why I say be true to yourself, and work out a balance. I sincerely believe everyone wins that way.
Normally I would agree with you but my son was 7 at the time and the quality of education he is receiving at his current school is so far superior to that at the old. Hell, the teachers couldn't even speak propper grammar at his old school. The environment was not the type of environment I would have wanted him in. I could go on a 2 hour tirade about that but we'll just leave it at he deserves to go to school where he feels safe and valued.
Well that was a balance.
Do you dislike where you live?
I'm in agreement with DomesticGodddess, not only that but Anthony has a very valid point.
I have heard now that there is help for family members of people going through these types of transitions. Telling people they just have to up and accept everything is awfully smug and pretty similar to the way the Fundamentalists react, in my opinion.
Wayne, I can appreciate what you're saying. However, it's not about pressuring kids. I've not seen DomesticGoddess on here going that direction, and I don't either. Here's the situation as I see it, with kids:
Kids have one chance to grow up. Count 'em, one. I can fuck up as an adult, and get myself out of the situation, but a kid gets one shot at growing up. I come from a different perspective than DomesticGoddess: there's a lot I experienced growing up which I deliberately avoided the daughter experiencing. I'm not bitter, I simply made up my mind to do better. And honestly? The people around me when I was younger did better by me than what was done for them, from what I have learned. As long as kids are minors and in our care, they are our responsibility. That responsibility gets transferred to the now-young-adults. I agree with Domestic Goddess: for as har as these past few years have been, I'm glad I made those sacrifices. For one reason: she was going to do high school one time. Kids don't get to do that one over again, not like us adults having failed at a business venture and later on in life get to go give another one a try.
I also agree that once you have a kid, everything changes. Your whole perspective changes on how you view the world in general, and your own life situation in particular.
In the thick of things, a few years of being drastically inconvenienced, is sure going to seem like a blink of an eye a few years from now. If I had not done the best I could by the daughter, I would have to live with that forever. Even if she made peace with it or whatever. So decisions like what DomesticGoddess is doing and what I've done can't be said to not have our own interests also.
Yes, but just because a child may not have a great time growing up, doesn't mean all hope is lost for them.
I definitely agree with being true to oneself. And if a few religious fundamentalists have a problem with that then that's their own lookout.
Well I agree a child is a great responsibility, but I also relize I have to look after myself as well in the process.
I and the child can come to a balance, but I'm not going to suffer for the childs sake no matter how much I love that child.
Here is what happens when you over balance. You have high hopes and dreams and you give up your life. The child grows up and tells you you never did anything for them, and then they don't talk to you for years or never, because you pushed them to hard.
Just like that child has only one time to grow up I also have only one life to live. I air on the balance side.
Lets say I keep my business I love, and that business grows greatly. Not only can I afford that child a better life, but I'm a happier person as well.
I'd not send a child to the worst schools just so I can be okay, but on the other hand I'm not moving to someplace I can't enjoy so the child can maybe flunk out of school and leave home because I pushed them to hard.
You can never tell what a child will be. All the love, patients, and care in the world sometimes just isn't enough.